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	<title>Comments on: Floridian Matters</title>
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	<description>from beneath you, it devours</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2008/10/floridian_matters.html/comment-page-1#comment-1958</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meloukhia.net/?p=2550#comment-1958</guid>
		<description>Reading your comment below, Meloukhia, I have to say you called it perfectly!  I think Senator Biden played the hand he was dealt just right.  I thought the most important thing he said was the lesson he learned from another Senator (?) about questioning another's motivation.  I think it's important that we all step back on occasion, take a deep breath, and remember that, for the most part, people believe they are acting for the betterment, and on behalf of, our "more perfect union".  Certainly not always, but generally true I'd like to believe.

-Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading your comment below, Meloukhia, I have to say you called it perfectly!  I think Senator Biden played the hand he was dealt just right.  I thought the most important thing he said was the lesson he learned from another Senator (?) about questioning another&#8217;s motivation.  I think it&#8217;s important that we all step back on occasion, take a deep breath, and remember that, for the most part, people believe they are acting for the betterment, and on behalf of, our &#8220;more perfect union&#8221;.  Certainly not always, but generally true I&#8217;d like to believe.</p>
<p>-Scott</p>
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		<title>By: meloukhia</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2008/10/floridian_matters.html/comment-page-1#comment-1957</link>
		<dc:creator>meloukhia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meloukhia.net/?p=2550#comment-1957</guid>
		<description>I'm with you on that one, B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you on that one, B.</p>
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		<title>By: brendan</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2008/10/floridian_matters.html/comment-page-1#comment-1952</link>
		<dc:creator>brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meloukhia.net/?p=2550#comment-1952</guid>
		<description>I think the problem is (was) less the idea that he might be seen as unfairly attacking Palin because of her gender if he went after her on real issues, but rather that any little thing one man might do to another would be viewed under such a tight lens as to make it appear sexist. That, in and of itself, is sexist, but is a much more nuanced sort of sexism, and one that many people I would consider good feminists have succumbed to.

It is difficult to forget the lesson of George HW Bush and Geraldine Ferraro in 1984. Because it's a harsh one, and a stern reminder of how tangled these sexism charges can get. In the debate, as a response,

Bush said, "Let me help you, Ms. Ferraro with the difference between Iran and the embassy in Lebanon. Iran, we were held by a foreign government. In Lebanon we had a wanton terrorist action where the government reproached it."

To which Ferraro replied, "Let me just say, first of all, that I almost resent, Vice President Bush, your patronizing attitude that you have to teach me about foreign policy."

A few things here. First of all, Ferraro was a House Rep, so she had some political experience. But she served on the Budget Committee, the Public Works and Transportation Committee, and the Post Office and Civil Service Committee before she ran for Vice President. In 1984 she did engage in a bit of foreign affairs, with a single trip to Nicaragua to speak with Contras. So a dash, a sprinkling.

George HW Bush, on the other hand, had at this point served as the US Ambassador to the United Nations, the Envoy to China, and the fricking director of the CIA, as well as serving as Vice President for four years. I don't think much of George HW Bush, but the fact is, the man had foreign policy credentials that were virtually unparalleled, and were leap years ahead of Ferraro.

All that being the case, I think he was entirely within the realm of acceptability condescending to speak down to her about her understanding of foreign policy - whether or not he was right. That's not to say I think politicians should be condescending to each other, but they are, all the time, and when they are this much more qualified than another, they particularly are.

But none of that mattered in this debate. The response in the media narrative was brutal (though Reagan of course was an unstoppable juggernaut by that point anyway), and Bush was tarred and feathered for what was viewed as an inexcusably sexist act. Now, I'm not saying George HW Bush wasn't hugely sexist. I'm not saying he wasn't condescending Ferraro for no reason other than her gender. But what I'm saying is there was no good way to know that. What I'm saying is that if he had been arguing against a man at that debate, he could have been 10x as condescending in his response and it would have just elicited chuckles.

I guess what I'm saying is we were fucked one way or the other going into this.

It's all moot now anyway. He handled it in the weak and predictable way, by just targeting McCain nonstop with Palin simply there as his proxy. He shouldn't have won this debate, the way he was arguing it, but all the polls say he did. Maybe the American people are smarter than I give them credit for? Or maybe that zombie-like smile of hers freaked them the fuck out too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the problem is (was) less the idea that he might be seen as unfairly attacking Palin because of her gender if he went after her on real issues, but rather that any little thing one man might do to another would be viewed under such a tight lens as to make it appear sexist. That, in and of itself, is sexist, but is a much more nuanced sort of sexism, and one that many people I would consider good feminists have succumbed to.</p>
<p>It is difficult to forget the lesson of George HW Bush and Geraldine Ferraro in 1984. Because it&#8217;s a harsh one, and a stern reminder of how tangled these sexism charges can get. In the debate, as a response,</p>
<p>Bush said, &#8220;Let me help you, Ms. Ferraro with the difference between Iran and the embassy in Lebanon. Iran, we were held by a foreign government. In Lebanon we had a wanton terrorist action where the government reproached it.&#8221;</p>
<p>To which Ferraro replied, &#8220;Let me just say, first of all, that I almost resent, Vice President Bush, your patronizing attitude that you have to teach me about foreign policy.&#8221;</p>
<p>A few things here. First of all, Ferraro was a House Rep, so she had some political experience. But she served on the Budget Committee, the Public Works and Transportation Committee, and the Post Office and Civil Service Committee before she ran for Vice President. In 1984 she did engage in a bit of foreign affairs, with a single trip to Nicaragua to speak with Contras. So a dash, a sprinkling.</p>
<p>George HW Bush, on the other hand, had at this point served as the US Ambassador to the United Nations, the Envoy to China, and the fricking director of the CIA, as well as serving as Vice President for four years. I don&#8217;t think much of George HW Bush, but the fact is, the man had foreign policy credentials that were virtually unparalleled, and were leap years ahead of Ferraro.</p>
<p>All that being the case, I think he was entirely within the realm of acceptability condescending to speak down to her about her understanding of foreign policy - whether or not he was right. That&#8217;s not to say I think politicians should be condescending to each other, but they are, all the time, and when they are this much more qualified than another, they particularly are.</p>
<p>But none of that mattered in this debate. The response in the media narrative was brutal (though Reagan of course was an unstoppable juggernaut by that point anyway), and Bush was tarred and feathered for what was viewed as an inexcusably sexist act. Now, I&#8217;m not saying George HW Bush wasn&#8217;t hugely sexist. I&#8217;m not saying he wasn&#8217;t condescending Ferraro for no reason other than her gender. But what I&#8217;m saying is there was no good way to know that. What I&#8217;m saying is that if he had been arguing against a man at that debate, he could have been 10x as condescending in his response and it would have just elicited chuckles.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m saying is we were fucked one way or the other going into this.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all moot now anyway. He handled it in the weak and predictable way, by just targeting McCain nonstop with Palin simply there as his proxy. He shouldn&#8217;t have won this debate, the way he was arguing it, but all the polls say he did. Maybe the American people are smarter than I give them credit for? Or maybe that zombie-like smile of hers freaked them the fuck out too.</p>
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		<title>By: meloukhia</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2008/10/floridian_matters.html/comment-page-1#comment-1950</link>
		<dc:creator>meloukhia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 00:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meloukhia.net/?p=2550#comment-1950</guid>
		<description>I think that unfortunately you're right, Scott: sexist values in this country are going to result in a negative perception of Biden if he goes after Palin. And I really think he should. I think he should push her, especially on policy, and I think it's a bummer that he is going to have to hamstring himself to avoid offending debate watchers with anachronistic values. 

Palin has a tendency to be extremely vague and not very on-topic herself, and to dodge questions she doesn't understand. Or to reel off talking points that she doesn't fully comprehend. I think she's way out of her league here, and I hope that people see that in this debate. Honestly, I don't think Biden will have to work very hard for Palin's true colors to be seen. 

I'm also concerned about Biden's performance on his own. He's made a number of stupid off the cuff gaffes historically, and I see some major potential here for him to really screw up. I can guarantee that the McCain campaign will jump on any and every little thing, and I almost think Biden would be better off playing things cool and conservative. 

Incidentally, I'm with you on liking neither platform (though if forced to pick, Obama would be my man). As for cussing, I think it's safe to say that using such language on national television would be a bad move for anyone involved in a Presidential campaign, let alone the Veep candidates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that unfortunately you&#8217;re right, Scott: sexist values in this country are going to result in a negative perception of Biden if he goes after Palin. And I really think he should. I think he should push her, especially on policy, and I think it&#8217;s a bummer that he is going to have to hamstring himself to avoid offending debate watchers with anachronistic values. </p>
<p>Palin has a tendency to be extremely vague and not very on-topic herself, and to dodge questions she doesn&#8217;t understand. Or to reel off talking points that she doesn&#8217;t fully comprehend. I think she&#8217;s way out of her league here, and I hope that people see that in this debate. Honestly, I don&#8217;t think Biden will have to work very hard for Palin&#8217;s true colors to be seen. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m also concerned about Biden&#8217;s performance on his own. He&#8217;s made a number of stupid off the cuff gaffes historically, and I see some major potential here for him to really screw up. I can guarantee that the McCain campaign will jump on any and every little thing, and I almost think Biden would be better off playing things cool and conservative. </p>
<p>Incidentally, I&#8217;m with you on liking neither platform (though if forced to pick, Obama would be my man). As for cussing, I think it&#8217;s safe to say that using such language on national television would be a bad move for anyone involved in a Presidential campaign, let alone the Veep candidates.</p>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2008/10/floridian_matters.html/comment-page-1#comment-1949</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meloukhia.net/?p=2550#comment-1949</guid>
		<description>I think I agree with the member of your debate crew who's worried about the perception of Biden attacking Palin.  Disclaimer:  I'm not voting for either ticket represented tonight without serious changes by one candidate or the other.  Call me sexist, but I would be seriously influenced by anything not specifically on topic or which I perceive as 'piling on'.  As a male, defending oneself against an attack by a female is fine, but beyond that is reprehensible IMHO.  Additionally, I could never cuss in the company of a female, but my mother and grandmother cuss up a storm during football season.  Still can't do it even though it's different when not in mixed company.

I remember my first thought when hearing about Palin being selected was along the lines of "what a brilliant pick,  they won't be able to tear her down without tearing themselves down".  Right or wrong?

-Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I agree with the member of your debate crew who&#8217;s worried about the perception of Biden attacking Palin.  Disclaimer:  I&#8217;m not voting for either ticket represented tonight without serious changes by one candidate or the other.  Call me sexist, but I would be seriously influenced by anything not specifically on topic or which I perceive as &#8216;piling on&#8217;.  As a male, defending oneself against an attack by a female is fine, but beyond that is reprehensible IMHO.  Additionally, I could never cuss in the company of a female, but my mother and grandmother cuss up a storm during football season.  Still can&#8217;t do it even though it&#8217;s different when not in mixed company.</p>
<p>I remember my first thought when hearing about Palin being selected was along the lines of &#8220;what a brilliant pick,  they won&#8217;t be able to tear her down without tearing themselves down&#8221;.  Right or wrong?</p>
<p>-Scott</p>
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