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	<title>Comments on: Not a River</title>
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	<link>http://meloukhia.net/2007/11/not_a_river.html</link>
	<description>this ain't livin'</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: sweetisu</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2007/11/not_a_river.html#comment-187</link>
		<dc:creator>sweetisu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-187</guid>
		<description>Oh hon*, I'm sorry that store irks you and sad to hear that they aren't doing anything to remedy or enhance their customer service.

I agree with you that it's stupid and idiotic and impractical. They're rationalizing it in their own ways that, perhaps it doesn't come off as offensive (to them at least) or hurt the person's feelings or risk being too frank. Nonetheless, it's stupid.

*I'm teasing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh hon*, I&#8217;m sorry that store irks you and sad to hear that they aren&#8217;t doing anything to remedy or enhance their customer service.</p>
<p>I agree with you that it&#8217;s stupid and idiotic and impractical. They&#8217;re rationalizing it in their own ways that, perhaps it doesn&#8217;t come off as offensive (to them at least) or hurt the person&#8217;s feelings or risk being too frank. Nonetheless, it&#8217;s stupid.</p>
<p>*I&#8217;m teasing!</p>
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		<title>By: jayne d'Arcy</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2007/11/not_a_river.html#comment-188</link>
		<dc:creator>jayne d'Arcy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-188</guid>
		<description>I despise shopping in stores and when I recently had to go shop for a girdle-type undergarment for a fancy dress, I had no choice but to deal with sales clerks.  The girl who helped me was a thin, goth chick who grabbed a tape measure and escorted me into the dressing room where I was measured.  I kept expecting some smart aleck remarks, but this girl (at least 20 years younger than me) was polite, professional and fitted me perfectly.  I wish there were more clerks like this girl.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I despise shopping in stores and when I recently had to go shop for a girdle-type undergarment for a fancy dress, I had no choice but to deal with sales clerks.  The girl who helped me was a thin, goth chick who grabbed a tape measure and escorted me into the dressing room where I was measured.  I kept expecting some smart aleck remarks, but this girl (at least 20 years younger than me) was polite, professional and fitted me perfectly.  I wish there were more clerks like this girl.</p>
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		<title>By: muddleman</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2007/11/not_a_river.html#comment-189</link>
		<dc:creator>muddleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-189</guid>
		<description>Yesterday I met a friend for lunch.  I hadn't seen him in 2 years.  I can truly call him a friend, because after we shook hands, his first pleasantry was to say "Well, you've certainly put on some weight."  And who but a friend would be that honest?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday I met a friend for lunch.  I hadn&#8217;t seen him in 2 years.  I can truly call him a friend, because after we shook hands, his first pleasantry was to say &#8220;Well, you&#8217;ve certainly put on some weight.&#8221;  And who but a friend would be that honest?</p>
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		<title>By: brendan</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2007/11/not_a_river.html#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator>brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-190</guid>
		<description>far be it from me to defend idiots. and i certainly don't have a problem telling people they're fat if they are. i haven't been phobic of that much at all in my life, and since being friends with you i wouldn't think twice about it, so you've done a good job evangelizing on that level.

but, to play the devil's advocate for a moment, i am not sure that it is always something people should be blamed so much for, denying someone is fat. many of us have been conditioned by people in our lives that when they tell us they're fat, our job is to tell them they aren't. it's a fucked up system, and i certainly am not denying it, but it exists, and scores of men and women have been trained day in and day out that this is their proper response.

the trick is to understand when someone is okay with the fact that they're fat, and when they aren't. reinforcing someone's own self-destructive body image, whether or not it is true, can be a dangerous thing to do, and i have known people who say "i'm fat" trying to get just such a reinforcement. whether or not they are fat is beside the point. what they want is external validation that they should be going to the bathroom to purge. and whether or not that's what you say when you agree, that's what some people will hear.

that's not to defend the specific instance of the woman at the store. she was obviously a fucking idiot. and it's not to defend the system that thinks fat is 'bad' and thin is 'good'. it's just to say that for a lot of people who have the kneejerk reaction to deny fatness, it doesn't come from a personal discomfort, or distaste. it comes from indoctrination by past girlfriends or boyfriends or parents or siblings, all of whom would lose their shit if you did anything other than vehemently deny their own assertation of fatness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>far be it from me to defend idiots. and i certainly don&#8217;t have a problem telling people they&#8217;re fat if they are. i haven&#8217;t been phobic of that much at all in my life, and since being friends with you i wouldn&#8217;t think twice about it, so you&#8217;ve done a good job evangelizing on that level.</p>
<p>but, to play the devil&#8217;s advocate for a moment, i am not sure that it is always something people should be blamed so much for, denying someone is fat. many of us have been conditioned by people in our lives that when they tell us they&#8217;re fat, our job is to tell them they aren&#8217;t. it&#8217;s a fucked up system, and i certainly am not denying it, but it exists, and scores of men and women have been trained day in and day out that this is their proper response.</p>
<p>the trick is to understand when someone is okay with the fact that they&#8217;re fat, and when they aren&#8217;t. reinforcing someone&#8217;s own self-destructive body image, whether or not it is true, can be a dangerous thing to do, and i have known people who say &#8220;i&#8217;m fat&#8221; trying to get just such a reinforcement. whether or not they are fat is beside the point. what they want is external validation that they should be going to the bathroom to purge. and whether or not that&#8217;s what you say when you agree, that&#8217;s what some people will hear.</p>
<p>that&#8217;s not to defend the specific instance of the woman at the store. she was obviously a fucking idiot. and it&#8217;s not to defend the system that thinks fat is &#8216;bad&#8217; and thin is &#8216;good&#8217;. it&#8217;s just to say that for a lot of people who have the kneejerk reaction to deny fatness, it doesn&#8217;t come from a personal discomfort, or distaste. it comes from indoctrination by past girlfriends or boyfriends or parents or siblings, all of whom would lose their shit if you did anything other than vehemently deny their own assertation of fatness.</p>
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		<title>By: Lise</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2007/11/not_a_river.html#comment-191</link>
		<dc:creator>Lise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-191</guid>
		<description>What I love is talking to someone who's stressing over the 'last five pounds' and THEN she turns to me and says "you're not fat".

um...   right.   At least she could have tried "It looks good on you" that way it doesn't have to be a lie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I love is talking to someone who&#8217;s stressing over the &#8216;last five pounds&#8217; and THEN she turns to me and says &#8220;you&#8217;re not fat&#8221;.</p>
<p>um&#8230;   right.   At least she could have tried &#8220;It looks good on you&#8221; that way it doesn&#8217;t have to be a lie.</p>
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		<title>By: Eden</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2007/11/not_a_river.html#comment-192</link>
		<dc:creator>Eden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-192</guid>
		<description>I wonder, if a size 8 woman went in and had pulled things for herself in her size, would this clerk have swapped them out for a size 2? Of course not.

Beyond the size issue, this woman wanted you to try on what she wanted you to try, not what you wanted. Extremely poor service. I'd be writing a firmly-worded e-mail to someone ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder, if a size 8 woman went in and had pulled things for herself in her size, would this clerk have swapped them out for a size 2? Of course not.</p>
<p>Beyond the size issue, this woman wanted you to try on what she wanted you to try, not what you wanted. Extremely poor service. I&#8217;d be writing a firmly-worded e-mail to someone <img src='http://meloukhia.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: meloukhia</title>
		<link>http://meloukhia.net/2007/11/not_a_river.html#comment-193</link>
		<dc:creator>meloukhia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-193</guid>
		<description>Brendan, I think you make an excellent point; as a society, we are conditioned to think that fat is unacceptable, and therefore we wouldn't tell people we like (or are trying to sell things to) that they are fat. This is something that the HAES movement is obviously trying to change, but it's an uphill battle, obviously. 

I think, for me, there's a clear difference between someone who is obviously slender who says "I'm fat" and someone who is fat who says "I'm fat." I would tell the slender person that he or she isn't fat, whereas I would agree with the fat person; unless it was obvious that the statement was made in self loathing and hatred, in which case I would probably have a more elaborate response. Because I agree with you that we should not be enabling self hatred and misery by telling the truth. You're right that a lot of people say that they're fat in expectation of a vehement denial, which is sad and kind of fucked up, and I think that says something about our society too. 

Was this clerk obviously a fucking idiot? Well, yeah, I mean she swapped the sizes I picked out for smaller sizes, tried to kick me out of the plus size section, and then brought back a small when I asked for an extra-large. But to some extent, I think that clerks are really conditioned to do this, to pretend that people are smaller than they are. Definitely not to the level of stupidity that this clerk displayed, but I've had lots of clerks tell me I look great in something which is obviously too small, or a clerk will eyeball me and say "oh, you're about an eight, right?" They do this not to be rude or insensitive, but because they are taught to do this. If a clerk says "you're around a 16, right," it might really upset a size 16 who is struggling with her weight and hating herself for it, so clerks lie to allow their clients to take the lead.

One of my favorite clerks ever had a great response to a dress that I tried on that was obviously too small and really not very flattering, back in the days when I was really struggling with my body identity. I came out of the dressing room and she said: 

"You know, that color really doesn't suit you, let me find it in teal, I think it would look much better."

And she got the dress in teal, three sizes larger, and I loved it. I didn't notice the size until the day I pulled it out to wear it. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendan, I think you make an excellent point; as a society, we are conditioned to think that fat is unacceptable, and therefore we wouldn&#8217;t tell people we like (or are trying to sell things to) that they are fat. This is something that the HAES movement is obviously trying to change, but it&#8217;s an uphill battle, obviously. </p>
<p>I think, for me, there&#8217;s a clear difference between someone who is obviously slender who says &#8220;I&#8217;m fat&#8221; and someone who is fat who says &#8220;I&#8217;m fat.&#8221; I would tell the slender person that he or she isn&#8217;t fat, whereas I would agree with the fat person; unless it was obvious that the statement was made in self loathing and hatred, in which case I would probably have a more elaborate response. Because I agree with you that we should not be enabling self hatred and misery by telling the truth. You&#8217;re right that a lot of people say that they&#8217;re fat in expectation of a vehement denial, which is sad and kind of fucked up, and I think that says something about our society too. </p>
<p>Was this clerk obviously a fucking idiot? Well, yeah, I mean she swapped the sizes I picked out for smaller sizes, tried to kick me out of the plus size section, and then brought back a small when I asked for an extra-large. But to some extent, I think that clerks are really conditioned to do this, to pretend that people are smaller than they are. Definitely not to the level of stupidity that this clerk displayed, but I&#8217;ve had lots of clerks tell me I look great in something which is obviously too small, or a clerk will eyeball me and say &#8220;oh, you&#8217;re about an eight, right?&#8221; They do this not to be rude or insensitive, but because they are taught to do this. If a clerk says &#8220;you&#8217;re around a 16, right,&#8221; it might really upset a size 16 who is struggling with her weight and hating herself for it, so clerks lie to allow their clients to take the lead.</p>
<p>One of my favorite clerks ever had a great response to a dress that I tried on that was obviously too small and really not very flattering, back in the days when I was really struggling with my body identity. I came out of the dressing room and she said: </p>
<p>&#8220;You know, that color really doesn&#8217;t suit you, let me find it in teal, I think it would look much better.&#8221;</p>
<p>And she got the dress in teal, three sizes larger, and I loved it. I didn&#8217;t notice the size until the day I pulled it out to wear it.</p>
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